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	<title>Comments on: The Second System</title>
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	<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/</link>
	<description>The road to 42.</description>
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		<title>By: Ramachandran M</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramachandran M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 04:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Grate expression born out of deep impression.

I am also involved in the development of a second system in one way or other so I can appreciate your view point. What about this point of view. Software developer is rather considered as creator who enjoys his creation than an employee who do some mediocre work.. Especially when he is an architect . Every creation is painful and is born out of no mind, which will be normally simple and intelligent. It is actually an intellectual property of the person. The term Intellectual Property (IP) reflects the idea that its subject matter is the product of the intellect.  The very reward of creation is the joy we get out of it. If it is frustrating then it is born out of mind. In this point of view is it not better to be caught in a trap…?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grate expression born out of deep impression.</p>
<p>I am also involved in the development of a second system in one way or other so I can appreciate your view point. What about this point of view. Software developer is rather considered as creator who enjoys his creation than an employee who do some mediocre work.. Especially when he is an architect . Every creation is painful and is born out of no mind, which will be normally simple and intelligent. It is actually an intellectual property of the person. The term Intellectual Property (IP) reflects the idea that its subject matter is the product of the intellect.  The very reward of creation is the joy we get out of it. If it is frustrating then it is born out of mind. In this point of view is it not better to be caught in a trap…?</p>
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		<title>By: David Durand</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>David Durand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-22</guid>
		<description>One thing missing from this post is that Brooks counts higher than two. The first system succeeds because fear of failure forces pragmatism in building. The second system fails (or is a bloat-master) because it&#039;s over-generalized dues to ambition and confidence. The Third systems (and after) are the best. They&#039;re better built than the cramped first version, but ambition is tempered by the experience gained from the runaway second version.
While this is  a learning process for all software architects and engineers, even experienced engineers may fall back into the trap if they move into a different enough area that they lose perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing missing from this post is that Brooks counts higher than two. The first system succeeds because fear of failure forces pragmatism in building. The second system fails (or is a bloat-master) because it&#8217;s over-generalized dues to ambition and confidence. The Third systems (and after) are the best. They&#8217;re better built than the cramped first version, but ambition is tempered by the experience gained from the runaway second version.<br />
While this is  a learning process for all software architects and engineers, even experienced engineers may fall back into the trap if they move into a different enough area that they lose perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Mehrdad</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Mehrdad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-20</guid>
		<description>My two cents:
&quot;Second system&quot; is the way of nature! Biologists call it &quot;Evolution&quot;. You change and update to adapt. In evolution, the result and the functionality counts, the design is the second issue. You go for the &quot;Second system&quot; because the very &quot;cool features&quot; can keep you on the top. If you don&#039;t, others will and your tool becomes irrelevant, i.e. you go extinct!
So may be sticking to the &quot;first system&quot; is the real trap that prevents you from progress!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My two cents:<br />
&#8220;Second system&#8221; is the way of nature! Biologists call it &#8220;Evolution&#8221;. You change and update to adapt. In evolution, the result and the functionality counts, the design is the second issue. You go for the &#8220;Second system&#8221; because the very &#8220;cool features&#8221; can keep you on the top. If you don&#8217;t, others will and your tool becomes irrelevant, i.e. you go extinct!<br />
So may be sticking to the &#8220;first system&#8221; is the real trap that prevents you from progress!</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 20:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-19</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the book.  Very interesting idea.  I&#039;ve been working on a second system for years.  My main objective is to make it so that someone besides me can figure out how to configure it.  I just spent 11 hours yesterday making the major changes to core that are needed to make it understandable but in the process broke all functionality.  I&#039;ve been putting yesterday off for months because it sucked so bad and now I got to go line by line and fix everything.  Maybe I should have just stuck to the first system.  Well, it was already the second system.  Yesterday began the third system.  Anyway, I&#039;m just hurting my job security, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read the book.  Very interesting idea.  I&#8217;ve been working on a second system for years.  My main objective is to make it so that someone besides me can figure out how to configure it.  I just spent 11 hours yesterday making the major changes to core that are needed to make it understandable but in the process broke all functionality.  I&#8217;ve been putting yesterday off for months because it sucked so bad and now I got to go line by line and fix everything.  Maybe I should have just stuck to the first system.  Well, it was already the second system.  Yesterday began the third system.  Anyway, I&#8217;m just hurting my job security, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Cerberis.EU Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Second System</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Cerberis.EU Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Second System</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-15</guid>
		<description>[...] &#160;          Second System Oct03 3 October 2007, admin @ 4:07 pm   From: The Second System  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &nbsp;          Second System Oct03 3 October 2007, admin @ 4:07 pm   From: The Second System  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Miro</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>Miro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-10</guid>
		<description>You have pointed out several valid concerns - but  what do you suggest as a solution ? Do you see any way &quot;out of the trap&quot; ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have pointed out several valid concerns &#8211; but  what do you suggest as a solution ? Do you see any way &#8220;out of the trap&#8221; ?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 19:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-8</guid>
		<description>Brooks also says &quot;plan to throw one away; you will, anyhow&quot;. Which clearly implies a &quot;second system&quot;.

I don&#039;t think Brooks is saying that a &quot;second system&quot; is inevitably a mistake (as he points out, an architect can&#039;t just skip his second system). Nor is he necessarily just referring to a rewrite or other such second attempt at the same system. Much of the chapter talks more generally about an architect&#039;s second &quot;task&quot;.

Instead, I think he&#039;s just pointing out that what an architect thinks they have learnt from their first system can make them overly bold and can generally lead them astray when approaching their second system. In particular, they then have exactly one example to draw lessons from, and can&#039;t tell what&#039;s specific to that one example and what has a broader truth. We need to be aware of this and take it into account, both in terms of self-discipline and in how we manage projects (e.g. not regarding architects as fully competent until after they&#039;ve worked on multiple systems - though nowadays I suspect the tendency is to regard people as senior achitects even before their first system).

In any case, however much I enjoy and admire Brooks&#039; book in its context, we shouldn&#039;t blindly take all of it as an absolute gospel truch regardless of circumstances. For example, in those days the technology and requirements didn&#039;t &quot;churn&quot; as quickly and there was a lot more similarity from one project to the next than I ever see today (though maybe that&#039;s just me...). Some of the economic trade-offs might also be rather different now due to different tools and techniques (for example, the &quot;extreme programming&quot; movement is at least partly based on an explicit recognition of how modern approaches have changed these trade-offs).

To quote something else from the same period, and in keeping with your &lt;a href=&quot;http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/42-42/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;42!,42!!&lt;/a&gt; post, the key is to always &quot;Think&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brooks also says &#8220;plan to throw one away; you will, anyhow&#8221;. Which clearly implies a &#8220;second system&#8221;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Brooks is saying that a &#8220;second system&#8221; is inevitably a mistake (as he points out, an architect can&#8217;t just skip his second system). Nor is he necessarily just referring to a rewrite or other such second attempt at the same system. Much of the chapter talks more generally about an architect&#8217;s second &#8220;task&#8221;.</p>
<p>Instead, I think he&#8217;s just pointing out that what an architect thinks they have learnt from their first system can make them overly bold and can generally lead them astray when approaching their second system. In particular, they then have exactly one example to draw lessons from, and can&#8217;t tell what&#8217;s specific to that one example and what has a broader truth. We need to be aware of this and take it into account, both in terms of self-discipline and in how we manage projects (e.g. not regarding architects as fully competent until after they&#8217;ve worked on multiple systems &#8211; though nowadays I suspect the tendency is to regard people as senior achitects even before their first system).</p>
<p>In any case, however much I enjoy and admire Brooks&#8217; book in its context, we shouldn&#8217;t blindly take all of it as an absolute gospel truch regardless of circumstances. For example, in those days the technology and requirements didn&#8217;t &#8220;churn&#8221; as quickly and there was a lot more similarity from one project to the next than I ever see today (though maybe that&#8217;s just me&#8230;). Some of the economic trade-offs might also be rather different now due to different tools and techniques (for example, the &#8220;extreme programming&#8221; movement is at least partly based on an explicit recognition of how modern approaches have changed these trade-offs).</p>
<p>To quote something else from the same period, and in keeping with your <a href="http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/42-42/" rel="nofollow">42!,42!!</a> post, the key is to always &#8220;Think&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Coward</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 19:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-7</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve created a kick-ass system at work, that is getting attention from other parts of the company too. Why am I rewriting it from scratch? Because I&#039;m too ashamed of the code produced by short deadlines and huge work load.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve created a kick-ass system at work, that is getting attention from other parts of the company too. Why am I rewriting it from scratch? Because I&#8217;m too ashamed of the code produced by short deadlines and huge work load.</p>
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		<title>By: Franck</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Franck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-5</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting version of the &quot;good enough&quot; theory that tries to teach us where to stop in an effort to switch to other priorities.

P.S: You should check how you associate &quot;time&quot; with your posts, because it seems that you are already October 22... and on my calendar it is only October 3 ;o)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting version of the &#8220;good enough&#8221; theory that tries to teach us where to stop in an effort to switch to other priorities.</p>
<p>P.S: You should check how you associate &#8220;time&#8221; with your posts, because it seems that you are already October 22&#8230; and on my calendar it is only October 3 ;o)</p>
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		<title>By: Riccardo</title>
		<link>http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Riccardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antipattern.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/the-second-system/#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Hello,
actually I&#039;m working on a big project that just looks like a second system. Basically is the rewrite of a BIG As/400 application to a .net frontend -&gt; java backend through web service.
At the moment I can&#039;t tell how is it going to end but it is an awful lot of work... :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,<br />
actually I&#8217;m working on a big project that just looks like a second system. Basically is the rewrite of a BIG As/400 application to a .net frontend -&gt; java backend through web service.<br />
At the moment I can&#8217;t tell how is it going to end but it is an awful lot of work&#8230; :-(</p>
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